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Author Topic: Important theory question.  (Read 4251 times)
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OnceFallen
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« on: April 01, 2006, 08:28:06 PM »

Let's say I had a riff that had these 3 notes in it and I was playing in E minor

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
----------10-10-10-10-9-9-9-9----------------      then G then F#
---7-7-7-7-------------------------------------  B


I was under the impression that playing the 5th of that riff would result in the riff looking like this

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-----------12-12-12-12-11-11-11-11--------      then D then C#
---9-9-9-9------------------------------------- F#
-------------------------------------------------


But that C# doesn't fit in the scale!  So how the hell do I play a riff in a perfect 5th if it doesn't match up??

If someone could explain this to me I would greatly appreciate it.

-Kevin
« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 08:36:30 PM by OnceFallen » Logged
bob endo
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2006, 08:55:18 PM »

Buy a harmonizer ?
,,|,,
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OnceFallen
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2006, 09:00:17 PM »

two problems with that.

1) I'd like to learn this

2) That costs money, no buying, only learning


I'm trying to incorporate the little theory I know into my writing.  So hum on my nuts Bob.

And I'm buying a Paintball gun this year.  Which means...you're done.

(What would you recommend?)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 09:12:34 PM by OnceFallen » Logged
wannabe
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2006, 09:44:25 PM »

Kevin,

Don't play the C#.........play it as a normal C. This way you get the b5 interval that represents the 7th degree. That is if you are dead set on staying in E minor.

You can also think of it being from a different key altogether. (your first riff starts on the note B so it could be considered the root of Bmin) This way when you harmonize a 5th above it works out fine.

The latter is what I would prefer. It sounds better to me.

So to answer your question......the C# doesn't fit if you are thinking key of Emin. It does fit however if you think of it as being in Bm which has a C# occuring naturally.

Hope that helps.

BEN
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OnceFallen
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2006, 09:55:54 PM »

Well I converted this all to Eminor just to make it more Universal.

Everything I write sofar is in Cminor though (lack of knowledge/creativity)...so if you shift all the notes I wrote in my first post down 2 whole steps, you'll see the problem I'm running into

B, G, F#, to G, D#, D,

F#, D, C#, to  D, A#, A,

With the A being the note that isn't working in the scale
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OnceFallen
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2006, 09:57:06 PM »

Even though your first post did help...Thanks

I'll give the thinking in Bminor a go too.
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bob endo
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2006, 01:42:55 AM »

Buy an A-5.
Join the legions of the loud & proud.
Seriously ... I don't know why anybody would want one of those "other" shiny puss-puss guns.
I'm already getting the fever, now that it's warm outside.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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wannabe
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2006, 09:32:16 AM »

Well I converted this all to Eminor just to make it more Universal.

Everything I write sofar is in Cminor though (lack of knowledge/creativity)...so if you shift all the notes I wrote in my first post down 2 whole steps, you'll see the problem I'm running into

B, G, F#, to G, D#, D,

F#, D, C#, to  D, A#, A,

With the A being the note that isn't working in the scale

Damn you and your tuned down guitar Kevin.

Upon further analysis......your first example you said was Em. Well I really don't get what you mean by universal. If you look at the notes you wrote there is no E at all so i definately don't see the root as being E...let alone the key being Em.

Like I said above, if you think in terms of Bm then they all relate perfectly.

So now that you wrote the notes down for what your actually playing on your tuned down guitar. The best fitting key now would be Gminor. The notes in the key of G minor are.......G A Bb C D Eb F G.

So if you think that way, then all the notes fit perfectly into the key of Gmin (Bb maj)

again.....damn you and your tuned down guitar

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 09:34:29 AM by wannabe » Logged

wannabe
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2006, 10:49:28 AM »

Just to clarify......don't change the actual notes on the fretboard. Kepp the riff and the harmonization exactly the same. what you need to change to make it work is to change which key you are trying to analyze it from.

If you keep the fingering the same and just think Bm then all the notes will fit.

Hope that mades sense.

................... damn those downtuned guitars
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OnceFallen
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2006, 10:51:47 AM »

Say I modify my riff so it's like this


-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------10-10-10-10-9-9-9-9--------               then G then F#
-0-0-0-0-0-0-0--7-7-7-7------------------------------------- First E then B



Over top of this


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------12-12-12-12-11-11-11-11--------             then D then C#
-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7--9-9-9-9------------------------------------- First E then F#
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which is more similar to how the actual riff would go because it has that starting E in it.  That is what makes it E Minor cause the notes I'm sticking with are E F# G A B C D E.   (Also known as G Major, and E minor being the relative minor...I think...I'm trying really hard to remember all this lately)

Anyways...With that in mind, the C # does not fit in the scale of E min/G Maj and so the finger pattern I play has to change from B, G F# (1,4,3) to F# C D (1,4,2) and that boggles my mind because it changes the riff alot and you can't just play a perfect 5th.

But I can't really think of it in a different key because then the E I use alot doesn't fit in the riff and it can get ugly.  Plus the rest of the song is in E minor and I just don't know enough to switch keys halfway through.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 10:59:35 AM by OnceFallen » Logged
wannabe
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2006, 11:36:27 AM »

See what happens whan you stop taking guitar lessons so you can afford another tuned down guitar?

Ok......I totally see what you're saying. The riff is set in stone, you like how it sounds as you are fingering it but you are having a hard time figuring out why it "works" in your ears but when you look at the thoery you don't see how the C# can be related because there is no C# in the key of Em (Gmaj)

What you have to look at are the notes you are playing. You wrote "E B G F#" THEN "E F# D C#"

So you already know that Em has no C# so why bother even trying to figure that out.

What I usually do is this: write out all the notes in order that are used and omit the repeated notes. here's what you get..........B C# D E F# G

From what we have here I would determine that judging by the number of sharps we would be in the key of D maj because D maj has 2 sharps. D maj is the same as Bm. All that's really missing is the note A.

So again......I conclude that if you wish to harmonize with that line what you are doing is playing in the key of B minor. You would only continue to play in Em if you played the C# as a natural C.

Hope this helps.
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diamondbanger
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2006, 10:45:52 AM »

Ben you forgot to curse downtuned guitars in your last post...
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